Curse

Akathrielah · Sep 15, 2005, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrogDevourer

- Enchantment removal is fine, thank you.

How is it fine? Especially with all of them having awkward 20 sec+ recharge times? Compared to many enchantments having 5-15 recharge times? Not even mentioning some monk spells that have a 2 second recharge?

FrogDevourer · Sep 15, 2005, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akathrielah

How is it fine? Especially with all of them having awkward 20 sec+ recharge times? Compared to many enchantments having 5-15 recharge times? Not even mentioning some monk spells that have a 2 second recharge?

You don't strip enchantments to shut down an entire build based on enchantments, you remove enchantments to strip a target for the killing blow, or to break the main strategy of your enemy. There are two types of dangerous enchantment builds:
- builds that use one very powerful enchantment, often covered with a cheap enchant. typical examples: IW, Aura of Faith
- builds that stack permanent enchantments to build up a stone wall. typical build: healing balls

Both are currently controlled with existing anti enchantments like Well of the Profane (to be coupled with a Glyph of Sacrifice if Necrotic Traversal is expected), Rend Enchantment or Lingering Curse, not to mention basic removals which are quite powerful against the average player (who won't cover his precious enchantment fast enough). Moreover, the new incarnation of Nature's Renewal is pesky enough to break degenerated strategies using permanent enchantments.

Simply put, adding an enchantment removal able to deal with Reversal of Fortune or Healing Breeze would be the best way to create a balance problem identical to the old Nature's Renewal, and to trash all the average enchantments which are perfectly fine.

Sure, we could use a couple of skills like wards to slow down the spellcasting of enchantments or to increase their recharge time. It could be good to keep enchantment spammers under control. But we don't need more or better enchantment removal.

salja Wachi · Sep 15, 2005, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akathrielah

How is it fine? Especially with all of them having awkward 20 sec+ recharge times? Compared to many enchantments having 5-15 recharge times? Not even mentioning some monk spells that have a 2 second recharge?

how are they fine? because while the mesmer has to cast EACH SPELL AGAIN a spell like rend takes them all down at once. so does lingering curse.

a good disenchante nevero will have 3 enchant removals by himself.

if the mesmers lives long enough to start casting his hexes again the necros enchant removal will be recharged by the time the mesmer has his second hex back up.

enchant removal is no where near underpowered.

play in team arenas whereyou can control your team build.

random arenas is not a good place for you if you rely on a monk for hex removal and heals.

Silmor · Sep 15, 2005, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrogDevourer

Both are currently controlled with existing anti enchantments like Well of the Profane (to be coupled with a Glyph of Sacrifice if Necrotic Traversal is expected), Rend Enchantment or Lingering Curse, not to mention basic removals which are quite powerful against the average player (who won't cover his precious enchantment fast enough). Moreover, the new incarnation of Nature's Renewal is pesky enough to break degenerated strategies using permanent enchantments.

Although the enchantment removal discussion is pretty much a side-track issue, I don't think it should be judged based on how it works with average players, instead only the competitive top should be regarded to determine its current balance position. As it is, spot removal loses out pretty easily to cover enchants, and the big guns (lingering, rend, profane) tend to be a larger burden than what they're removing (but do get the job done). I think the problem mostly lies with the highly diverse nature of enchantments (from 60s recharge conjures to maintained enchants to short duration enchants such as orders or guardian) set against pretty consistently priced/potent removal (spot removals consistently being 10-15 energy with 20-30s recharge), and the stack system itself promoting using cover enchantments to protect enchantments that actually matter isn't helping either.

salja Wachi, could you please bother taking longer than 10 seconds to blurt out your post? First you're talking enchantment removal, then you're talking about a mesmer reapplying hexes, your gross typoing makes it unclear if you meant to write 'necro' or 'never' which makes it very difficult to understand your standpoint, and after comparing a mesmer (not very enchantment heavy) with a necro (still the best enchantment removers) you suddenly conclude enchantment removal is no where near underpowered. Make some bloody sense, thanks.

Theos · Sep 15, 2005, 07:56 PM // 19:56

The frag build is, IMO, the same as an elmo for mesmers. It is as easy to use, as strong in small battles, and easy to use... wait did I say that twice? Most of the mesmers I have seen in RT or AT have actually been pretty bad mesmers :/ I guess it is the same as elmo, attracts all the bad players because it is so easy to do. Any mesmer worth his weight in gold will always have an ability to counter this, if not turn it against the user. Also a Me/Mo will just totally destroy it... as in worthless to even try

I never run frag for the reasons above really, I like to run original builds not FotM... actually I don't run any of those mesmer builds that you see litered over RT... its just sad and very very easily counterable my personal favorite is Inspired Hex + Enchant... you can stop both builds... and with a few other skills totally lock two possible builds out of excistance.

Every class has these strong to use "uber/leet" builds with which players, who either farm faction or are just bad players, use to gloat over those who actually try original things. Sad isn't it?

stumpy · Sep 15, 2005, 07:58 PM // 19:58

<angered and confused>
what the hell are you talking about? a necro running enchant removal has nothing to do with mesmers casting hexes. you cannot remove hexes with enchant removal. so again what the hell are you talking about?
</angered and confused>

I have to agree with the statement above. If not many of the experienced betas and alphas who Anet has responded too ... slowly. The consensus just sees the face of things while the experienced players who know the skills better then the food the eat, can really see how it is effecting other skills.

Phades · Sep 16, 2005, 09:09 PM // 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrogDevourer

You don't strip enchantments to shut down an entire build based on enchantments, you remove enchantments to strip a target for the killing blow, or to break the main strategy of your enemy. There are two types of dangerous enchantment builds:
- builds that use one very powerful enchantment, often covered with a cheap enchant. typical examples: IW, Aura of Faith
- builds that stack permanent enchantments to build up a stone wall. typical build: healing balls

There are also the spammables that make any single layer enchantment removal pointless. This means you are left with three methods of enchantment removal. Rend, curse, and switching targets, are what you are left with, assuming that group buffs are not also being used. Well requires a dead target, so if you arent wasting all of your time beating up against a heavy defense stack of enchantments, then its kinda pointless to bring. Sure you could try and sacrifice one of your own, but only a couple maps require the other side to actually stay near a given position.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrogDevourer

Both are currently controlled with existing anti enchantments like Well of the Profane (to be coupled with a Glyph of Sacrifice if Necrotic Traversal is expected), Rend Enchantment or Lingering Curse, not to mention basic removals which are quite powerful against the average player (who won't cover his precious enchantment fast enough). Moreover, the new incarnation of Nature's Renewal is pesky enough to break degenerated strategies using permanent enchantments.

Stacking wouldnt be a problem, if there were limits to the stacking of type and number. It would also make the single layer removals more viable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrogDevourer

Sure, we could use a couple of skills like wards to slow down the spellcasting of enchantments or to increase their recharge time. It could be good to keep enchantment spammers under control. But we don't need more or better enchantment removal.

Actually the only enchantment placement that really needs to slow down is in the monk realm, its fine everywhere else in terms of speed versus effect and duration(for the most part). There is one style missing from the enchantment removal, just following spell patterns. We have 3 types of varied beneficial gain, 2 mass removals, a corpse exploitation, a direct offensive one dealing fair damage, and a point blank aoe one. What is missing is the ranged aoe single layer type. The refresh times for the multi layered enchantment removal is alright, but the single layer removal is too slow, considering none of them except chillblains can even hope to keep up with things like balthazar's aura, never mind the more simple and useful augmentation and protection spells. This is why many instances are defaulted to the diversion solves everything cliche.

fuzzybulldozer · Sep 16, 2005, 11:35 PM // 23:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mhydrian

Do you see the ridiculous numbers of frag mesmers flooding the random arenas? Is the mesmer class supposed to totally destroy any class( excpet the prepared monk secondary) with a simple press of a few buttons? What is the deal?

Melee in this game might as well not exist. Anet has still not addressed the ease at which melee is totally negated. Either by snaring them, burden, crippling anguish. Or be it by blinding them, weakening, the numerous hexes that necros and mesmers have. Or if all else fails an easy escape is to simply run around, atfer a few seconds your health will magically come back on its own.

How does a melee defend himself against a frag build? Or all the degen effects that totally negate armor and the only real benefit a warrior primary has? Why does a mes/w with illusionary weapon and melee buffs far surpass a warrior in melee and tanking? Excusing overpowered enchants because of the handful and inefficent enchantment removals in the game doesnt cut it.

No one is bringing these things and I understand why. A enchantment removal , besides couple the necro has, does nothing to actually hinder a enchantment build. Bringing them is pointless and nobody does for the most part. Is there an enchantment that allows a W/me cast better and be more effective than a primary mesmer? Not a chance.

Im seeing frag mesmers casting through walls, no line of sight issues, and killing people within seconds. If you are lucky enough to close the gap on one of these in melee, they have th option of simply running, and using one of MANY devastatingly effective melee counters.

Right now PVP in the random arenas is trash. Playing a melee is pointless, whether it be soothing images, crippling anguish, imagined burded, SEVERE armor ignoring degeneration, blindness, weakness, shadow of fear, and the other numerous hexes...you simply have no chance. These skills NEVER fail, and cannot be defended against. There is no strategy, when you see fragility you simply die.

The only prayer is a talented disrupt ranger on your own team. But any frag mesmer would probably frag the ranger immediately behind the cover of a SOLID wall.

Totally useless broken PVP. Melee are worthless, enchantments are out of control, casters have godly defenses and incredible ranged damage. And they have the mobility advantage. I know flames will follow, but to honestly this game has builds that are plain exploits and they run rampant in arenas, nothing is done. That same fire map still loads in random arenas despite I would estimate 85% of people absolutely HATING that map.

I want a game where my play skill matters in the arena. I dont want to surf the message boards for the next exploit build. Strong builds are one thing, but ANET has done NOTHING to fix the melee vs caster imbalances in the game. They leave interrupts and weak encahntment removals the only line of defense against an enormous aresenal of caster based damage. They give warriors armor as their best asset and at the same time give casters enchantments that give them superior armor. And not to mention the fact that at LEAST 50% of damage done in arenas totally ignores armor.

Flame away, intelligent discussion would be nice. But not likely. I would just once like to see some real positive changes to thet game to make melee a decent class that is not so easily countered.

I agree completely. It is as easy as you said to completely negate a melee character, whether through blind, empathy, run speed debuffs, run speed buffs, and simply running away without any run speed buff at all. In exchange for this monumental weakness, the melee characters surely have a great advantage as well? No, they do not. Damage is comparable, and yet melee can be easily shut down and casters can not. Oh sure, the warrior has high armor. Big deal when AT LEAST 60 percent of pvp damage completely ignores armor (hexes, smiting, fire, etc). The only solution is to remove the incredible amount of melee counters, or vastly increase melee damage.

Arcanis the Omnipotent · Sep 17, 2005, 03:34 AM // 03:34

Or you know, not. Apparently your missing that whole thing about a Melee character shouldnt try to be a Stand Alone, which is most of the problem. You get things cast on you that shut down Melee, get someone else to take them off you. This is why a Mesmer is also your best friend as a Warrior.

I cant tell you how much I hate getting attacked by tanks as a Mesmer. I get double-teamed half the time. And against one, I have some rate of success, I can take down a single warrior attacking me with no problem. But two warriors is a problem, and I die like a lemming vs a cliff.

Your going to complain because Hexes and things like that ignore armor and damage you for doing Melee, if even letting you at all. So apparently, you dont know to use something other than just Melee attacks in your skill bar. You have a secondary class for a reason, and there's no rule stated somewhere that says "You MUST be a Monk secondary if your a Warrior".

Complaining because casters can take you down is like me saying a Warrior beating me is unfair.

Its stupid, and pointless. This is competition. You arent outmatched, you're just equally matched. Learn to cope or get out of the way.

fuzzybulldozer · Sep 17, 2005, 05:08 AM // 05:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanis the Omnipotent

Or you know, not. Apparently your missing that whole thing about a Melee character shouldnt try to be a Stand Alone, which is most of the problem. You get things cast on you that shut down Melee, get someone else to take them off you. This is why a Mesmer is also your best friend as a Warrior.

I cant tell you how much I hate getting attacked by tanks as a Mesmer. I get double-teamed half the time. And against one, I have some rate of success, I can take down a single warrior attacking me with no problem. But two warriors is a problem, and I die like a lemming vs a cliff.

Your going to complain because Hexes and things like that ignore armor and damage you for doing Melee, if even letting you at all. So apparently, you dont know to use something other than just Melee attacks in your skill bar. You have a secondary class for a reason, and there's no rule stated somewhere that says "You MUST be a Monk secondary if your a Warrior".

Complaining because casters can take you down is like me saying a Warrior beating me is unfair.

Its stupid, and pointless. This is competition. You arent outmatched, you're just equally matched. Learn to cope or get out of the way.

Lay out for me, if you will, the multitude of ways with which a caster can be completely shut down. If you can't, you've proven my point. Because there are a great many very obvious ways to COMPLETELY shut down a warrior. I'm complaining not because casters take me down, ooh I'm a crybaby, but because of the EASE with which I am COMPLETELY removed from the picture. And spellbreaker is an elite only available to monks, which can still be bypassed by any sort of ranged attack that is not a spell.

Kai Nui · Sep 17, 2005, 05:10 AM // 05:10

Well it's like a mongoose and a snake or a wasp and a spider, or maybe a dolphin and a shark. There is no one on top, it depends on how they fight.

Numa Pompilius · Sep 17, 2005, 12:27 PM // 12:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by fuzzybulldozer

I'm complaining not because casters take me down, ooh I'm a crybaby, but because of the EASE with which I am COMPLETELY removed from the picture.

You think you're easy to kill as a warrior? Wow. Try playing as a domination mesmer or a minionmancer necro and learn what "easy to kill" really means.

Again, if you're a team without defence against N/Me | Me/N's, target them first. He may kill one warrior, but then he's toast as he'll get no support from his team. Ignore the monks, monks in 4v4 random are prot/smite anyway and tank better than warriors.

Silmor · Sep 17, 2005, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by fuzzybulldozer

It is as easy as you said to completely negate a melee character, whether through blind, empathy, run speed debuffs, run speed buffs, and simply running away without any run speed buff at all. In exchange for this monumental weakness, the melee characters surely have a great advantage as well? No, they do not. Damage is comparable, and yet melee can be easily shut down and casters can not.

Damage isn't comparable at all. Melee has the highest sustained damage output in the game (broken exceptions such as ER smiting aside), can get the benefit of critical hits, especially on running opponents (which spellcasters cannot), have excellent speed buffs, some decent snares, the most scary array of knockdowns in the game, and that's just from tapping purely into their primary, many of the problems you describe can be circumvented by the secondary profession. Really, go play a spellcaster for a change and find out how enjoyable it is when a warrior -isn't- disabled. The reason why there's disproportionally many anti-warrior skills being carried into PvP is because of the threat warriors pose, not because it's so easy to get rid of them.

cookiehoarder · Sep 17, 2005, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Shatter delusions suck on frag mesmers.

secretsmg · Sep 17, 2005, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mhydrian

Melee in this game might as well not exist. Anet has still not addressed the ease at which melee is totally negated. Either by snaring them, burden, crippling anguish. Or be it by blinding them, weakening, the numerous hexes that necros and mesmers have. Or if all else fails an easy escape is to simply run around, atfer a few seconds your health will magically come back on its own.

How does a melee defend himself against a frag build? Or all the degen effects that totally negate armor and the only real benefit a warrior primary has? Why does a mes/w with illusionary weapon and melee buffs far surpass a warrior in melee and tanking? Excusing overpowered enchants because of the handful and inefficent enchantment removals in the game doesnt cut it.

No one is bringing these things and I understand why. A enchantment removal , besides couple the necro has, does nothing to actually hinder a enchantment build. Bringing them is pointless and nobody does for the most part. Is there an enchantment that allows a W/me cast better and be more effective than a primary mesmer? Not a chance.

Im seeing frag mesmers casting through walls, no line of sight issues, and killing people within seconds. If you are lucky enough to close the gap on one of these in melee, they have th option of simply running, and using one of MANY devastatingly effective melee counters.

Right now PVP in the random arenas is trash. Playing a melee is pointless, whether it be soothing images, crippling anguish, imagined burded, SEVERE armor ignoring degeneration, blindness, weakness, shadow of fear, and the other numerous hexes...you simply have no chance. These skills NEVER fail, and cannot be defended against. There is no strategy, when you see fragility you simply die.

The only prayer is a talented disrupt ranger on your own team. But any frag mesmer would probably frag the ranger immediately behind the cover of a SOLID wall.

Totally useless broken PVP. Melee are worthless, enchantments are out of control, casters have godly defenses and incredible ranged damage. And they have the mobility advantage. I know flames will follow, but to honestly this game has builds that are plain exploits and they run rampant in arenas, nothing is done. That same fire map still loads in random arenas despite I would estimate 85% of people absolutely HATING that map.

I want a game where my play skill matters in the arena. I dont want to surf the message boards for the next exploit build. Strong builds are one thing, but ANET has done NOTHING to fix the melee vs caster imbalances in the game. They leave interrupts and weak encahntment removals the only line of defense against an enormous aresenal of caster based damage. They give warriors armor as their best asset and at the same time give casters enchantments that give them superior armor. And not to mention the fact that at LEAST 50% of damage done in arenas totally ignores armor.

Flame away, intelligent discussion would be nice. But not likely. I would just once like to see some real positive changes to thet game to make melee a decent class that is not so easily countered.

Have you seen GvG lately? 90% of the teams rely on warriors as the main dmg dealer due their staying power and lack of dependency on energy. As a warrior you must rely on your team mates to remove conditions and hexs for the most part. In an organized build there are players assigned to these duties and will keep a melee character up and ready for the fight. The random arena is a poor example for pvp as you have no control over what skills your teamamtes have. It's just there for poeple to test skills/get an idea of pvp or just mindless fun.

The best advice I can give u for random arena warrior build is to make a w/mo and carry purge conditions as ur sole monk skill. It requires no attributes and will solve a lot of the problems you are getting.

fuzzybulldozer · Sep 17, 2005, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silmor

Damage isn't comparable at all. Melee has the highest sustained damage output in the game (broken exceptions such as ER smiting aside), can get the benefit of critical hits, especially on running opponents (which spellcasters cannot), have excellent speed buffs, some decent snares, the most scary array of knockdowns in the game, and that's just from tapping purely into their primary, many of the problems you describe can be circumvented by the secondary profession. Really, go play a spellcaster for a change and find out how enjoyable it is when a warrior -isn't- disabled. The reason why there's disproportionally many anti-warrior skills being carried into PvP is because of the threat warriors pose, not because it's so easy to get rid of them.

If warriors pose so great a threat, why are the best guilds in near universal agreement about killing them last?

secretsmg · Sep 17, 2005, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by fuzzybulldozer

If warriors pose so great a threat, why are the best guilds in near universal agreement about killing them last?

Because they have the best armor rating for the most part and is very difficult to take down when the healers can still protect them. It's more efficient to take out the casters unless a warrior is out of position.

Legendary Battousai · Sep 17, 2005, 09:06 PM // 21:06

hexbreaker = gg frag mesmer, then just have a hammer, kd>mesmer and if you really need it, warriors cunning.

for enchant hogs, they own because nobody brings enchant removal, and its pointless to make a build to destroy only enchants because then you serve no further benifit to your team.

warriors are f-ed by blind or signet of midnight and epidemic for multiple melees and everyone but enchant casters are left. thus you see every caster with enchants on them slaughtering the arena.

fuzzybulldozer · Sep 18, 2005, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by secretsmg

Because they have the best armor rating for the most part and is very difficult to take down when the healers can still protect them. It's more efficient to take out the casters unless a warrior is out of position.

I disagree. The real reason is that warriors are easily, effectively, and completely removed from battle, while other classes are not.

fuzzybulldozer · Sep 18, 2005, 01:01 AM // 01:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

You think you're easy to kill as a warrior? Wow. Try playing as a domination mesmer or a minionmancer necro and learn what "easy to kill" really means.

Again, if you're a team without defence against N/Me | Me/N's, target them first. He may kill one warrior, but then he's toast as he'll get no support from his team. Ignore the monks, monks in 4v4 random are prot/smite anyway and tank better than warriors.

Sorry for the double
I never said I was easy to kill. I said that my damage was easily completely and utterly removed from the picture.